Clutch Problem

divemaster5734

divemaster5734

Been away a few months, hope everyone is doing well and getting ready to hit the dirt.
Got a problem with a project bike, hopefully someone here can help.


I picked up a pretty beat 85 CR 250.

It was evident there was owner neglect.

It had good compression.

Rebuilt the carb, and replaced probably 15 missing bolts that had vibrated out and never been replaced.

There wasn't even 1 bolt holding up the exhaust, just the 2 springs at the head, and the collars for the intermediate and muffler transitions.

The clutch wouldn't disengage the engine , so ordered an ERB replacement.

When I took it apart there were springs and plates from a different model installed.

Put in the right spec and still couldn't get it to engage.

Filed down the ridges on the basket and still nothing.

Got a replacement basket from eBay, and also noticed one set of roller bearings that go between the basket and crank shaft was missing, so replaced those too.

Went to Honda , and got the factory spec gear oil.

There were some random bolts that stripped or broke during the process.

One in particular was one of the six that hold the clutch plates to the basket.

I had to tap a 7mm instead of the 6mm.

I know there's a little extra weight in the new bolt, but just figured the entire mass of the rotating clutch assembly was more than enough to overcome any rotational imbalance by 1 or so gram weight difference in the bigger diameter bolt.

I had the new plates soaking in oil for weeks, waiting for broken or missing parts .

I made sure the actuator rod, bearing, and end cap were good, even replaced the end cap that pushes against the inner clutch hub plate.

Just started it up and still no clutch.

Before putting on the side cover I checked the action , and could see the inner hub push out, and saw a gap form between pates.

Pulling the clutch feels more like brake action than clutch.

Once you have the initial resistance of the clutch pull on a normal bike , it stays the same no matter how far you pull it in.

This has resistance that increases as you pull, and it's nearly impossible to pull it all the way in.

As I said, working the lever action with the cover off I could see the housing move, and the pressure releases on the clutch plates.



I am stumped.



Any advice would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks in advance.
 
O

ossagp

if the outer cover or pressure plate is off, can you turn the two baskets (in and outer) independently of eachother? to be honest I am having some trouble telling if you cant get it to disegage (act like it is neutral) or engage (act like it is in gear and transmit power to the drive chain)?
 
2strokesteve89

2strokesteve89

If the lever feels normal when pulled in with clutch cover off. and not so with cover installed then there must be an issue with the cover or something interfering with cover, maybe paint inside cover with grease paint, like what is used for setting up rear differentials. then install cover and pull it back off after attempting to use clutch. maybe you can see what is hitting(if anything) inside there.
 
divemaster5734

divemaster5734

PALMER84ONE:
Photos or a video of the action you describe would help. Something in the basket is not right.
Click to expand...

That's what I thought too, so even though I filed off the wear ridges on the basket, I bought one in excellent condition and swapped.



ossagp:
if the outer cover or pressure plate is off, can you turn the two baskets (in and outer) independently of eachother? to be honest I am having some trouble telling if you cant get it to disegage (act like it is neutral) or engage (act like it is in gear and transmit power to the drive chain)?
Click to expand...

Yes. Once I get the inner hub plate off,( the one that holds in the clutch plates), the inner hub turns freely.
I have to use the clutch tool vice grips to remove the hex nut.

PALMER84ONE:
Yep, the clutch is having separation anxiety. :smirk:
OP does seem to say it two ways. Engage/disengage...
Click to expand...

Even watching the inner hub end plate flex when I pull in the lever the clutch will not function.
I just assumed it was because the side cover was off, no oil, not spinning fast enough, etc..


2strokesteve89:
If the lever feels normal when pulled in with clutch cover off. and not so with cover installed then there must be an issue with the cover or something interfering with cover, maybe paint inside cover with grease paint, like what is used for setting up rear differentials. then install cover and pull it back off after attempting to use clutch. maybe you can see what is hitting(if anything) inside there.
Click to expand...
hell of an idea.
I did look for any obvious signs of wear.
There's the water pump activator that holds the cover out a little, but that's at the fron end of the engine.
I'll take it apart again in the morning and try to discern any lever pull differences with side cover off or on.


All that being said, the cover fits tight enough to not leak oil, not sure if there's enough flex in the cast cover to bend that much without a crack.



Thanks to all that responded.
 
O

ossagp

Still not clear here: Are you trying to get the clutch to release or engage. In other words, feel like NEUTRAL or transmit power?
 
divemaster5734

divemaster5734

ossagp:
so you cant move the bike under power?
Click to expand...
It will go and shift, but no clutch.
I realize it may seem backwards, but no clutch is in gear all the time.
If out in wide open area is OK, but the tight twisty trails you need better control.
I haven't had a chance to work on it since last week.
Going to get some colored grease and try Steve's suggestion.
Need to get a new gasket now anyway, lost count how many times I opened it up and used the same one.
 
O

ossagp

OK, once again, a clutch that is ENGAGED is one that is transmitting power. Disengaged means that it is NOT TRANSMITTING POWER. Just pulling the handle one way or the other is NOT the definition of engaged or disengaged. Good thing to know if you are ever talking to people how have less patience.

I have used some pretty grooved up baskets. The basics are that you adjust properly and have actuators that are in decent shape. One of the things that wears on the honda and gets missed a lot is the arm inside the magneto cover. you may want to remove it and take a lot. it wound get enough rod travel if it is too worn. it is cheap, and it is also easy to build up and file down if you have a welder. plates with some bend or warp in them will do it too. so it is nice to take them out and put them on a flat surface such as glass so you can get your face down to them and see if you have some puckers. if you do, it makes enough clutch drag to keep you from getting a decent release.
 
divemaster5734

divemaster5734

ossagp:
OK, once again, a clutch that is ENGAGED is one that is transmitting power. Disengaged means that it is NOT TRANSMITTING POWER. Just pulling the handle one way or the other is NOT the definition of engaged or disengaged. Good thing to know if you are ever talking to people how have less patience.

I have used some pretty grooved up baskets. The basics are that you adjust properly and have actuators that are in decent shape. One of the things that wears on the honda and gets missed a lot is the arm inside the magneto cover. you may want to remove it and take a lot. it wound get enough rod travel if it is too worn. it is cheap, and it is also easy to build up and file down if you have a welder. plates with some bend or warp in them will do it too. so it is nice to take them out and put them on a flat surface such as glass so you can get your face down to them and see if you have some puckers. if you do, it makes enough clutch drag to keep you from getting a decent release.
Click to expand...


The arm looked good, but found another one on eBay and ordered it anyway.
In going through diagrams found other missing stuff.
Don't think it has anything to do with the operation, but will definitely cause wear.

Going to wait for the new actuator arm before tearing it apart again, hoping to find the thrust washers and collar that were "missed" when it was jury rigged.

The thrust washers and collar go under the basket, and reduce the friction between needle bearing sets, inner hub, and crank case.

Am just glad I didn't pick a 1950 Indian for a project, don't think I have the patience to wait years for parts.
 
divemaster5734

divemaster5734

brokenbrook:
did you adjust the rod that comes off the pressure plate? the people you got it from prolly did that so the worn down plates would still engage.
Click to expand...



Uh.. that makes a lot more sense than anything else.
The brakes were tightened down to the end of the threads.

Is that just done at the clutch lever?
 
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